Jamie VermiglioFor Leadership Relay’s 6th interview we catch up with Jamie Vermiglio (JV). Jamie has a fascinating story to tell. He is the headteacher of a large primary school in the North West of England. Jamie is also a football manager, managing at Chorley Football Club. After securing promotion under Jamie’s management in 2018-2019, they were playing in the 5th tier of English football this season. Jamie talks about the lessons that can be transferred to education from his experiences in football and vice versa. He talks about the importance of communication, promoting distributed leadership and the values that are important to him. He discusses how he manages his time and the importance of having a good team around him at home, in school and at the football club. Leadership Relay really appreciates Jamie giving up his time. It is an extremely busy period for him as he prepares for the new football season, as well as the return to school in September. Thank you very much, Jamie. We hope you enjoy the interview as much as us! |
The Interview
LR - Can you tell me about any leadership skills that transfer from football management to leading a school? Would you say there are any skills that you can transfer from school to football?
JV - I think a lot of the leadership elements are transferable. A lot of the elements from football I can transfer to my school life and it works both ways. I believe in trust and distributed leadership, empowering people and getting people fully on board. I think communication is massive, whether it’s in school or football or any role that you are in, the communication element is important. It’s crucial when setting out your vision, your targets and what you expect from the outset. For example, when we’ve had to interview for a primary school teacher or a potential candidate for a different position or whether it’s a player that you’re meeting and trying to find a bit about them out to see whether they’ll fit in - I’ve had a few of those meetings recently!
For me, that distributed leadership is key in how I work, particularly in school and I try to do that in the football world too. I think there are a lot of skills that are transferable from sport to education. I went to University, did Sports Science and then did the PGCE route. In the world of sport you come across so many characters. There are good people, people with good values, people who work hard and most of them have got a high level of emotional intelligence.
I appreciate the skills that somebody from a sporting background can bring. They’ve been around the team mentality and team ethos and when they go into any role within the world of work, I think those skills are very important. In my school, one of the key drivers in the curriculum is relationships. Even when we weren’t talking about our curriculum drivers, throughout our school there have always been core values; manners, integrity, trust, honesty and developing relationships with the children, the parents and staff. I think that is a key one that can really work in your favour in school and in football as well. It’s all about good people.
If you’re a good person and you’ve got a good moral compass it can stand you in good stead. Sometimes this can go against you. I’ve found this can go against you in the world of sport, especially the loyalty side of it. I think that it’s important to be loyal in football, but loyalty only gets you so far. I think there is also a time when you need to make decisions with your head and not with your heart and that is the most difficult thing that I’ve found in all honesty. This happened for me last season when we got promoted and this season with the relegation.The loyalty does exist and I’ve got those moral values, but you’ve also got to turn around to people that you trust and have built up strong relationships with and say ‘look, thanks very much, you’ve been a great servant for the club, but I think it’s time we went our separate ways.’
LR - This might seem a strange question, but would you do anything with the school staff and the football team at the same time like a motivational speaker for example?
JV - I do try and keep my football and my work life separate, although they do intertwine. The children get involved with the football, especially when we were successful in the season we got promoted. The children were fully on board with it. We’re quite a large school, close to 400 pupils with a lot of staff. The children and the parents were amazed with it really. They started asking about the results and some of the assemblies were built around some of the things we were doing in football. Don’t get me wrong, like most people, you feel a bit embarrassed when people give you credit or praise in public, but it is also quite nice.
It’s nice to have the football background. It's quite a privileged position to be able take that into school for the children and the teachers are quite inspired by it. There are leadership styles that I keep the same, but there are a lot of things that are totally different as well. I think it’s quite a key important human characteristic to be able to be able to be different people at different times with different people that you come across.
LR - Time Management must be a massive consideration for you, how do you manage your time?
JV - In our roles, you’ve got to be efficient with your time. I’m sure like you, I’m up early, get into work and make sure everything is organised. Organisation is key isn’t it? When I go into school, I do try to keep the roles separate, I put my phone away and try not to look at it unless it’s a breaktime, but generally speaking, I don’t look at my phone until 5.30/6pm ish. Then I go a little more into football zone.
I might have missed calls so I try to catch up with those on the way home. I make sure I have tea with the family and try to spend some time with them. Then at night time, I am on my phone and my computer quite a bit and work until late. I can usually cope with around 5 or 6 hours of sleep. I’ve always been used to it as well growing up. With my degree and teacher training route, I was always playing football and I was always at football on Tuesdays,Thursdays and Saturdays. It is obviously different now when you’re the manager as you’re working constantly really, but you just get used to it and it becomes a way of life.
LR - I guess you’ve got a lot of good people around you who can help you at home and in school and with the football club?
JV - My wife is brilliant and she does everything around the home, from sorting the children out, to the washing, all of the things that can take time when you are at home. My wife, Carla, and my children come to the games too and they’re very much part of it. As the manager you become even more a part of the club as you are there so often, so it’s even more important to have your family around you. Occasionally, we get to go on the pitch afterwards and so on.
Similarly, at school I’ve got good staff around me, I’ve got a good leadership team and fantastic staff there. The relationships with staff are really strong. I feel I’m approachable and there is a mutual respect and appreciation between us. Staff wellbeing is a key consideration and we try to be flexible as possible and support staff when they want to attend professional development opportunities, as we all want the best for the children.
Then at football, I can't always be there. I’ve got parents evenings, governors meetings or something that might happen in school, which means I can't get to the places that I need to be on time. Andy Preece is my assistant manager and he is fantastic. It’s more like a joint management team in all honesty. We make a lot of decisions together and I can lean on him. Do you know anything about Andy?
LR - I know that he was a player at Wrexham and Blackpool for a while and was he a manager at Bury himself?
JV - That’s right, yes. He became player manager at Bury and he went on to do a variety of different things. He was at Worcester and he was manager at Northwich Victoria and he took me into Northwich as a player. He was my manager there so it was a bit of role reversal. I didn’t think for one minute that he would accept the role to be honest because he is an out and out manager, he’s not an assistant manager, he’s definitely a manager. For him to come in and work alongside me has been brilliant. You do need people around you that you can trust implicitly and I’ve got that all over the place.
LR - What would you say has been your best professional development opportunity, either in school or with the football club over the past couple of years?
JV - I don’t think that there is anything in particular, I think if you get an opportunity you just take it. With my teaching career, I did really well initially. I was liked by the children and by the parents, I got good results, I worked hard and I gave it my all. I was working, like the vast majority of teachers, all hours at night to make sure my lessons were decent. Then you get a bit of a reputation. I never intended to be a headteacher or a deputy so early.
An opportunity came along to be a deputy, someone asked ‘are you ready?’ I didn’t really think I was fully ready, but I went for it and I did okay and then I became a head. Was I ready? I probably wasn’t completely ready, but the best bit of CPD I've had is being thrust into those moments when you don't think that you’re ready. You ask yourself ‘how did I get to where I am? How am I doing what I’m doing?’ You’ve got to have belief in yourself and use that, along with what other people say around you, and believe that you’re doing a good job and that you can do it with the best of them.
It’s like with my football, I didn’t expect to be the manager of Chorley Football Club or the assistant manager, or the coach, but an opportunity came and I was in the right place at the right time and I took it. The best CPD for me is taking that leap of faith, going for it and learning as you go along. A lot of work and effort goes into it. I’m not trying to say that it’s easy or that you go into it blind. I spend a lot of time preparing for school, a lot of reading, a lot of research in and around both school and football. I don’t think you’re ever ready for a moment in a lot of things, but by doing it it’s the best CPD possible.
LR - Do you have any books or podcasts that you recommend that all leaders read or listen to?
JV - At the moment, I’m listening to a non league football podcast, more during my own downtime really so I’m enjoying listening to that. There is a book I’m reading at the moment. It’s called The 5am Club by Robin Sharma and it works on the principle that there are 24 hours in a day and you’ve got to utilize them, get up early, get yourself organised and you feel better for it, so I try my best to do that. At the moment, I’m trying to get up early to get a couple of hours done before the children get up and it sets me up for the day.
We hope you enjoyed this interview. If you enjoyed it please do let us know on our twitter account!
You can view our interview with BBC TV and Radio Presenter, Simon Mundie here -https://leadershiprelay.weebly.com/simon-mundie.html