Simon MundieAfter a short break, Leadership Relay (LR) is back with a new interview. It’s with Simon Mundie (SM). Simon is well known for his spell as a Sports Reporter on BBC Radio One. He can also be seen on BBC television as part of the team presenting the BBC’s Wimbledon Tennis coverage. For the past couple of years, Simon has presented the excellent ‘Don't tell me the Score’ podcast which is under the Radio 4 umbrella. The podcast explores life's big questions using sport as a metaphor for life. As part of this pod, Simon has interviewed a number of sporting legends including Sir Clive Woodward, Frankie Dettori, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Sam Warbuton, Mathew Syed, Sam Alladyce, Caitlyn Jenner, Laura Muir and Sir Ben Anselie to name a few. During this fascinating interview, Simon discusses his early career and how he made things happen for himself on his journey to working at BBC television and on Radio. Simon is a meticulous planner and he talks about how he tries to get the best from every interview. Simon discusses how having key values rather than goals have helped him in both his work and home life and is also very reflective.He also mentions the key lessons from his interviews and gives his top tips for living a happier and successful life, before giving several excellent book and podcast recommendations. Leadership Relay really appreciates Simon giving up his time. Thank you so much, Simon. If you haven’t listened to his podcast, you can find the link at the bottom of the interview. We thoroughly recommend it. We hope you enjoy the interview as much as we did! |
The Interview
LR - Can you tell me about your career so far?
SM - I was always a big mouth at school and I did a psychometric test as part of a careers unit and it did say journalist was my best match. At the same time, tennis was my favourite sport, I was absolutely obsessed and I still am obsessed with tennis. My dad used to get the Daily Telegraph as I was growing up and I used to read the tennis section. So I always knew from an early age that I wanted to combine broadcasting, journalism and tennis. I went to university and I did broadcast journalism. Initially I was doing sociology, but I realised this was a waste of time for me. I was looking through the prospectus for Leeds University with an idea of doing French and when I opened it, I opened it straight to the broadcast journalism page.
I went to see the tutor who was the leader of the course. I basically sold myself to her because I had completed work experience at a newspaper at school and she said ‘perfect, you can come on the course next year.’ I wouldn't have got on the course if I'd have applied in the first place because my predicted grades weren't quite good enough.So the stars somewhat aligned on that. I had to phone my parents to let them know that I'd be coming back a year later. At first they were like ‘what?’ and then when they realised I’d got onto a better course, they came around pretty quickly!
So I did a broadcast journalism degree and loved that, really enjoyed it and then I left uni and started working in radio working for a company called All Out Productions making documentaries for Radio One and other radio stations. Then I moved on to work in TV and did crowd warm-up for Robot Wars, I don’t know if you remember that program? Then they offered me an enhanced role to do another series, but I’d already booked to go travelling. I went travelling for the best part of a year and a half, thinking that when I came back I'd be super motivated and know exactly what I wanted to do. Actually the opposite was true and I was almost a bit lost. My motivation to do broadcast journalism had somewhat waned.
I felt under pressure when I got back to just get a job quickly. So I rang up a tennis magazine that I'd read for my whole life. I basically rang and a guy was leaving there so I worked there. Broadcasting was what I’d trained to do and what I wanted to do, but I kind of got stuck there. It was a really fun place to work, it was part of the Lawn Tennis Association and there were lots of young people working there. It was like being back at school, everyone would go and play sports at lunch time. So I was there for 3 years and the whole time I was thinking in the back of my mind ‘this isn’t quite right.’
LR - How did you end up on TV and Radio?
I did interviews on behalf of the magazine on TV and for radio, the TV ones are actually on Youtube. A few people said to me ‘look you’re good’ and I can remember thinking this is what I trained to do, why am I not doing this? So I got some advice and someone said ‘there is this little radio station not a million miles from you that sometimes takes people on.’ So I rang them up and asked if they had anything. They said they had a guy leaving and asked if I would like to do his show on a Saturday.
There was no money, so basically for a year I did that alongside my job at the tennis magazine. I also presented sport and some news at a radio station called Radio Jackie. It basically cost me money to do this every Saturday, but it was a way to get back into it. At the end of that year, the opportunity came up to take voluntary redundancy which I did. I went on to apply for jobs in radio as I’d had a bit more work experience which I hadn’t had for a few years.
I got a job in Ipswich and took a big pay cut, but I felt really happy because my ladder was up against the right wall after a few years of it being against the wrong wall. I worked in Ipswich for a year before coming back to London. Again the stars aligned and there was a job at Virgin Radio, which later became Absolute Radio, doing sport. Then I freelanced for 3 years. At the end of that time, I was at a red carpet do and bumped into somebody I knew who was working at Radio One. I asked if there were any jobs going and they passed on the details of the Deputy Editor.
I got in touch and to cut a long story short they offered me the chance to shadow, but said there were no jobs. In a way my brain was quite relieved because I felt it was too much of a step up, it felt like that imposter syndrome and didn’t feel good enough for it. Even though I had those feelings I was still pushing. I saw him in December and he said ‘there’s still nothing coming up’ and I sent him a Christmas Card and made sure I stayed on his radar. Then early in the new year he got in touch and said ‘by chance we’ve actually got some gaps in the rota that we need freelancers for, do you want to come in and do a couple of shifts and see how you get on?’
So I did that and then 2 or 3 months later they hired me.Then the guy who had been doing sport for 10 years left at around that time. He actually covered the World Cup in 2010 and they said they needed someone to cover Wimbledon and asked if I know anything about tennis! By this time, I had already worked for Radio Wimbledon for 3 years and I knew my tennis so they gave me the chance to do Wimbledon.This was because tennis is my passion and Wimbledon is the highlight of my year. I know every Wimbledon winner from 1968 onwards, I know most of the scores, finalists. I did well at it and he left after the World Cup so I got the job!
So I was the Radio One sports reporter from the middle of 2010. This period included the 2012 Olympics, The Brazil World Cup in 2014, Andy Murray winning Wimbledon, Ryder Cups, Ashes and Formula One. The beautiful thing about the job is that it’s the best sports broadcasting job in terms of access in the country. At any other station you work for people do different sports so there will be a football person and a rugby person for example. At Radio One, I was the only sports person so any sport, I would do and it was probably the best decade of sport in British history in terms of what happened.
Then in 2015 -2016, I started thinking of moving on again, I was a bit comfortable. I started trying to make things happen for myself. I wanted to get on the TV at Wimbledon. I was doing all of the social media stuff for the website. They’d send me out to speak to all of the people in the queue which kind of my forte;interacting with the crowds. Then between 2017-2018, I kind of harassed the BBC Sport bosses to give me a chance to do the TV. Literally the day that Wimbledon started in 2018, I still didn't know if I was going to get a chance. I was like, let's ‘burn the boats’, so I headed up to the production office armed with 2 ice creams for the 2 bosses and they gave me a chance.
So I did a few things and I managed to impress them seemingly and in 2019 I was brought in as a proper member of the team as one of the reporters for Sue Barker and Clare Balding. That was proper dream come true stuff! My inner child was squealing with delight as I was sitting next to Boris Becker and Tim Henman and all of these people and it was amazing. I interviewed Djokovic after the final, I interviewed Federer loads of times so that was pretty amazing. I was supposed to be doing Wimbledon again this year, but obviously it got cancelled which was gutting so we’ll see what happens next year.
I started working for the today program on Radio Four in about 2017 and basically a new editor came in, Sarah, and I really got on well with her. She gave me the opportunity and between us, we came up with the idea of me doing a podcast. I always wanted to do something about what sport teaches us about life because the frustration I had as a sports reporter was that you spend a lot of time talking about results and reacting and it can be quite shallow I felt. It’s great fun, but quite shallow sometimes and I've always been more interested in the slightly deeper aspects of the human experience. I always think that sport is a really good metaphor for life and is a good way to explore life because it touches all of the big human themes. So we took the idea and we got a podcast off the ground and I've been doing that ever since after Wimbledon in 2018.
LR - The thing that stands out for me is that you’ve had to go out there and knock on doors yourself and you’ve made it happen by the sounds of it.
SM - That’s the really important thing and one of the important lessons I've learnt is that I’ve always got to places when it has been down to me to hustle and if you’re not hustling or creating you’re inevitably staying still. I think that is a real lesson that I’ve learnt and that I would share with anyone is that you’ve got to make stuff happen. At big companies sometimes, it can be all too easy to not make stuff happen. I would have been really surprised if someone would have told me in 2010 that I'd be still working at Radio One 7 years later, but it was such a fun place to work.
Everyone just applies for jobs in the normal way, but I wouldn't say that I’m the sort of person that is brilliant at doing job interviews or anything like that. I mean I'm not awful, but I’m not great, but what I have been good at is when I'm able to go and speak to people and create stuff in kind of an unorthodox way, for example; the guy at Radio One, the bosses at Wimbledon, getting my podcast off the ground. None of those opportunities I got in the stereotypical way and when I reflect on my life, when I got back into radio, even at university when I got on that course and certainly with the TV at Wimbledon and with the podcast, that’s something I really value and will try and keep front and centre in my mind for the rest of my career, however long that may last.
LR - You obviously do a lot of research about each of your guests on 'Don't tell me the Score.’ This enables you to draw out key information from your interviewees. Do you have any tips so that people are able to get the most out of professional development discussions?
SM - What I would say is that I'm a very meticulous planner, I really do a lot of research about every single guest. The reason for that mainly is so that I feel ready and if I feel ready, I don't feel like I’m blagging it. If I don't feel like I'm blagging it, I can relax and I'm able to let it flow. What I would say is two things. First of all, to do your preparation. I listen to other podcasts and I always think that I go the extra mile in terms of preparation. I go through people’s social media and there is so much stuff on the internet. I really do write copious amounts of notes most of which will be pointless. It just gives me confidence.
A lot of top sports coaches and people, Sir Clive Woodward, Sir Ben Anslie have said a similar thing to me that confidence is preparation. So preparing really thoroughly, going above and beyond and going above the cursory things. If someone has got a book out, I read the book. Very rarely have I ever interviewed somebody about a book they’ve got and the themes within it, without reading the book. So preparation is number one.
Remembering that everyone is just a person, it’s easy to put people on a pedestal and treat people with extra deference and I often still fall into this trap because you can't help it. If I think about it, when I was growing up, Boris Becker was my absolute hero. I was more disappointed when he got knocked out of Wimbledon than when England lost in a World Cup. I've interviewed Boris loads of times, and I still find myself being a ‘superfan’. If you listen to my interview with Boris for ‘Don't tell me the Score’, it is a bit fawning and a few people have said that.
Generally speaking, I try to speak to people whether it’s you, whether it’s Jamie Peacock who I spoke to today, whether it’s Caitlyn Jenner, whether it’s Jonny Wilkinson, whoever it is, I'll try to speak to them in the same way. I may not always achieve that, but generally speaking I try to speak to people the same way. Everyone is just a person and they are no different. We put sports stars and celebrities on a pedestal and it is easy to think of them as different, but they’re not, they're just the same, they’re people who have done extraordinary things. I try to relate to them as I would anybody and speak to everybody in the same way as I would with a friend.
Finally, having done the preparation, what I would say is about letting go and I’ve been guilty of not doing this on occasion in hindsight. It’s important to not try and control an interaction too much and make sure you listen. Listening is such a rare thing, most of the time and I’m not going to ask whether you’re doing it now or not, but most of the time, people will listen with a thought in their head about a question or whatever it might be. It is very rare to listen as empty listening space. It’s about reacting in the moment, rather than trying to plan ahead and control it too much. So after I’ve done all the preparation I just try and let go and let it flow. I listen, react and have as authentic and natural a conversation as possible and have the faith that it will flow normally, not trying to over control it and panic too much about it.
LR - So if you were having an interview, would you have a handful of bullet points maybe?
SM - So if I give you the example of my interview today, I read loads of stuff, listened to loads of podcasts and watched some videos and I wrote 4 pages of notes. From that I put it down to a page of bullet points, notes, that kind of thing. Then, when we actually spoke, I only really referred to that in the last 20 minutes as there were a couple of things I did want to discuss.It was mostly all in my head anyway. So I have that there, but I will try and react where possible and also I will write notes. I will always have a pad and a pen to write because, particularly if someone is giving me a long answer, I might think of something and if I hold that thought then I'm not listening and if I carry on listening I might forget that thought. So I might jot something down really quickly and go back to it. I do have bullet points and information, but I try not to refer to them too much.
LR - It really does come across on your show, it really does sound like two mates down at the pub having a conversation, that’s why I love it so much because I think you get so much out of the guests.
SM - That’s very kind, I hope that’s how it comes across and I know I can get better at that. Recently, I’ve reflected, I listened to an episode I did and I thought I'm listening pretty well, but I could be listening a bit better. There was a point I was trying to get something in and I could tell I was trying to get it in so since then, I've tried to let go even more.
LR - Can you tell me about an area of your own work that you feel you've improved upon over the past couple of years? How did this change come about?
SM - It’s about getting back to that hustle mentality of breaking rules and, at the risk of sounding like David Brent, being unorthodox. Trying to create stuff and not making decisions from a place of fear, but trying to back myself and be authentic in the way that I want to do things. Not to necessarily conform to what other people say when they say ‘oh you shouldn't do it that way.’ Of course take feedback on board, but decide whether or not I agree with the feedback.
Like I said, 3 or 4 years ago I said that I needed to make stuff happen and I had a bit of a ‘burn the boats’ mentality where I'd go right to the top people and sell yourself. I didn't know exactly where I was heading to, I didn't know I would have the opportunity to get a podcast. My priority was the Wimbledon TV, but that mentality and that approach got me the podcast. The stars aligned and doors opened in ways that I didn't perhaps expect by having that attitude of making stuff happen rather than waiting for things to happen.
LR - Do you write goals down as a lot of people write their goals down?
SM - Yes I do, but I change them and I don't refer to them as much as I should. I know what my goals are. For example, at the moment there are a couple. I'm writing a book so one of my goals is to get the book finished on time. Another goal up until recently was to get the podcast extended which I achieved and to keep doing the podcast well. So those are the main goals. I have other goals around health, family and friends and things like that. They are more loose in my head. Something which I think is more valuable is writing down your values. I did an exercise in one of my podcasts with Goldie Sayers who gave a really good exercise in how to work out your values. The thing about goals is that goals are great, but they are out of your control. For example, loads of people would have had a goal to do well at the 2020 Olympics, but then the 2020 Olympics is cancelled, so then what? Whereas your values might be to demonstrate consistent hardwork, for example.
For me health is top of my list, connection is important to me for my job and also with my friends and family. If you know what your values are on a day to day, week to week basis, you're in control of your values in a way that you're not with your goals. You may or may not reach your goals,but you have a choice about whether you live up to your values. If you live up to your values, and you notice you live up to your values, that gives you a positive feedback dopamine loop which is good for you and invariably leads to success anyway, but without the need for a guarantee. It's a reliable way of feeling good about where you want to go. It's not saying that having goals is a bad thing because it’s not.
LR - That just reminds me of a poem that Sir Clive Woodward writes about in his book called the ‘Man in the Glass.’ It’s about being able to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the day.
SM - Yes and it’s not to say I always achieve it, I often don't live up to my values and when I do that, I tend to pay the price a bit. If I haven't connected with friends or family for a bit then I tend to notice it. If I drink too much over a weekend and eat the wrong stuff, I will pay a price and sometimes that price is worth paying! It’s not about perfection, it’s about something to keep you on track.
LR - You've interviewed a number of inspirational people. Are you able to get an insight into 'what makes them tick' when the 'cameras aren't rolling'/recorders not on?
SM - It’s like what I said before, they’re just people so they’re no different from you or me. Some people perhaps have been somewhat affected by their celebrity and therefore you are not able to connect with them. That’s very few. I’ve got 3 people I can think of in my head and I didn’t feel I was able to connect with them. This was because I think they’d bought into the celebrity and it’s hard to connect with someone who believes that of themselves and is surrounded by people who enforce that message I think. Most people I've spoken to, 98% of the people I've spoken to are just normal people, they’re no different to you and me. If I give you an example, one of my favourite interviews was Ronnie O’Sullivan. I was trying to get Ronnie for a while. His management got in touch and said ‘he’s up for it, do it at a hotel near his house on a Saturday morning.’
I can remember thinking, I’m not going to risk travelling across London on a Saturday morning and missing it so I went to stay in the hotel.I got up early on the Saturday morning and the people in the hotel all spoke very fondly of Ronnie. He obviously went there sometimes and we filmed parts of it as well. He turned up, on his own in a blue t-shirt. You don’t quite know what to expect with Ronnie as his reputation is sometimes messing about in the media, being a bit surly, he can take the mickey, all this kind of stuff. It took him a little while to warm up, but not long and it was just like chatting to a mate.
I was thinking that this is really easy,really cool and his guard increasingly came down. We swapped numbers and we were chatting afterwards about some things we were interested in. He was just really nice, sensitive, funny, generous, keen to help; just a really cool guy. That is often the case. If you can connect with people, you see that more and people show you what they’re like and what they’re like is really normal.
Another one of my favourites was with Will Carling. Will was obviously England captain in the 90s. He had a bit of a tricky end to his captaincy or rather to his rugby career and he was a bit of public enemy number one with the media and he had a really rough time. That really rough time ended up being a blessing for him because he kind of said that it ended up puncturing any ego he had around being this super star rugby union player. His values completely changed. Now he’s Mr Family Man, he doesn't even have any rugby memorabilia or anything like that and he was such a good bloke. He was one of the nicest guys. That was really interesting to see. Often, if you’ve been through a rough time, like he went through, it's actually a good thing for people in that position. Afterwards, he didn't believe the hype, he stopped believing the hype about him and as a result was able to be much more authentic. What felt terrible for him at the time ended up being a real blessing.
Some celebs, and I'm not talking about people on the podcast here, do believe the hype. As a result of that you can't connect with them because they believe this mirage of themselves that often isn't real and you can't connect with them. If you can connect with them, they're just normal people, but if you can’t, that celebrity has eaten them unfortunately and until they dispel that false persona then it’s hard to connect.
LR - Tony Adams said something similar to Will Carling didn't he about having his ego punctured at some point?
SM - He was another great one. Tony found his purpose and similar to Will, for different reasons, he got raised to the ground. Like you said, he got his ego punctured and he had to build himself up from rock bottom. Most of the time, if I'm speaking about people in the podcast, that is a blessing which is kind of a nice thing to think that it might be the best thing that could happen in the long run. Tony is another one. From that place, where he was at rock bottom, not only did he become a sound, rounded guy, he has also been able to positively impact the lives of 1000s of others and that’s pretty amazing.
LR - From the knowledge that you've gained from all of your interviews, what would you say are your main tips for success for leaders/aspiring leaders out there?
SM - Make things happen for yourself. Don't make decisions from a place of fear. Don't take the easy option. Have a growth mindset, so say ‘I’m not good at this..yet’’. So in our house, we’ve just got a piano, my other half is very musical. I don't consider myself to be musical, but a growth mindset might be maybe I will learn piano. I don't think I will, but maybe I could take piano lessons and have piano lessons and have faith that I will be good enough to get better if you know what I mean? Rather than just saying ‘no I can't play the piano’ having that growth mindset in any area of life is really important. So if you’re not good at something, just put … yet at the end of it.
Valuing connections is so important. So I have a lot of people getting in touch with me asking about career advice and for work experience, internships etc and I obviously can’t do much at the moment with lockdown. I always ring people back if people get in touch asking for career advice. I always ring them back because I always remember the people who helped me. John Inverdale chatted to me when I was just out of university and I have never ever forgotten the conversation and the fact that he took time out to help me. It meant so much and it gave me confidence so I always want to pay that forward. When people did come in for work experience when I was at Radio One, you would notice the difference in people who had an interest in you and an interest in the program. It’s such a big difference rather than coming in with ‘what can I get out of this?’
f I was starting out again, I would say to myself ‘look if you get in touch with a radio station, you make sure you know about that radio station, you make sure you know about the people who work there, make sure you have an interest in them and make sure you’re thinking, what can I offer them? Look to connect genuinely because I think human connection is the most important thing.’ If you can connect with people, genuinely, authentically, honestly, then you’re laughing.
Then on top of the growth mindset, just doing the extra.
So Jamie Peacock, he was all about doing extra. So when he was starting out in Rugby League, he would always do the training that he was told to do. So the coach would say ‘do this training, do that training, do this run, do these weights’ etc and he would do it. Then he was thinking, if I want to get ahead, I need to do more, so he would just do 5% more than anyone else. So at the end of a training session, he might do another 200m or whatever, but the cumulative of that adds up and doing that bit extra, going that extra bit makes a huge difference. That doesn’t mean working longer hours necessarily, it might be for example, if I think back, I went to the lady to get onto the course in university, I sent the Christmas Card to the guy at Radio One, I took the ice creams, just doing little things to go above and beyond is really valuable.
Understanding your mind is vital. Understanding that we all have this voice in our head that wants to keep us lazy and fearful, it's the voice that says ‘I'm not good enough to do this.’ It's the voice that says stay in bed rather than doing that, it's the voice that says scroll through the internet, it’s the voice that says I've been wronged by this person therefore I feel this way. It shows up in so many ways. I think that being able to spot that voice in our head is important. It comes from the limbic part of our brain, the survival part of our brain that is fearful and lazy essentially and it’s also very competitive and wants to beat other people as opposed to take other people along with you. If you can spot that voice, whether that be learning through mediation or there are lots of ways of doing it, then that is really powerful.
It’s like when you go for a run, let's say you go for a half hour run and after 20 minutes the voice is saying ‘stop, just stop, just stop.’ If you’ve got an injury then you need to stop. If you don't have an injury, if you can just listen to that voice, and not act upon it, and start to understand that you don't have to take what that voice says as true, then that is a really powerful thing. That voice leads into so many other things we’ve talked about in terms of connection, in terms of making decisions from fear, in terms of not hustling and making stuff happen. That is that voice trying to keep you safe, but safe is also in the comfort zone and there is no growth in the comfort zone.
LR - I’ll have to try that myself, I’ve been awful, we’ve got a treadmill and I’ve been trying to get fitter during lockdown, but when I get to a certain point I do have to stop. If I'm on the road I'm fine because there are people around, but because the treadmill is hidden away and I just stop.
SM - By the way, you just said ‘I've been awful’ and that is that voice as well. That’s the self critical voice that we all have. I have it big time, I journal and I can be so hard on myself and write things like ‘I should be doing this, I should be doing that’ and I think, I wouldn't be that judgemental about other people, but when you just said ‘I’ve been awful’ I know you don’t mean it, but that is what that voice is like as well. Like I said, I have it in spades. It pops up all over the place, it’s subtle, insidious and sneaky that the more we can spot it, the better.
LR - I’ve learnt something there, I’ll have to watch that as I’m sure I might use phrases like that about myself in work, for example.
SM - Being critical of yourself and other people, it comes from that and it’s borne from fear. It’s actually the subject of this week’s podcast, it’s with Pippa Grange and she talks about this a lot and it’s that fearful voice that we have. It's huge, it’s a really big one. It's behind tribalism, identity, politics, so much stuff. It’s kind of, I think, the unrecognised voice in people and people thinking it’s them is the cause of so much disquiet both internally and in a much bigger society level.
LR - Are there any books/podcasts that you recommend everyone reads/listens to?
SM - Don’t tell me the Score x 5!! I’ll start with books, I always say ‘The Obstacle is the Way’ by Ryan Holiday. It’s about stoic philosophy, it's about understanding what we do and don’t control. He also has another book ‘The Ego is the Enemy’ which is about the same thing that we have been talking about that voice. Another one is ‘The Power of Now’ by Eckhart Tolle, that is very much about the voice in our heads and he has got a lovely quote where he talks about getting to a point where you can listen to the voice in our head and smile at it like it’s a small child bleating on.
‘Range’ by David Epstein is fascinating. I thought about my years working at the tennis magazine and for a long time, I thought that was wasted time, but after reading that book I got a new narrative in my mind about that time. It made me realise that it wasn't a waste of time at all. This was because I learnt a lot about what I didn't want to do and I learnt various skills that I've been able to put into practice. I think a lot of people who go straight into their careers from University perhaps don't appreciate what they do as much and also they might get stale in their thinking perhaps. So I'm really pleased I spent that time doing that now. Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed is brilliant, diversity is a really big thing at the moment and he talks about the diversity of ideas and thinking and that is really interesting and really worthwhile reading, particularly relating to social media. The Chimp Paradox by Dr Steve Peters is also useful.Legacy by James Kerr is another brilliant one. That is a sensational book.It’s about the culture of the All Blacks.He is a brilliant writer and a lovely guy. I had him on the podcast really early.
In terms of podcasts, I really like Tim Ferris’s podcast. I really like quite funky stuff to be honest. I like one called Awareness Explorers and feel better, live more can be quite interesting with Dr Chatterjee.
We hope you enjoyed the interview. You can download and listen to the Don't tell me the Score podcast here. We thoroughly recommend it!https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06qbt0y/episodes/downloads
If you enjoyed this interview, you can read interview 4 with Danny Cowley here - https://leadershiprelay.weebly.com/danny-cowley.html